(no subject)

[sauergeek]

I have recently discovered a question that I have been searching for the answer to for many years. The question is a simple one, so I suspect that (like most simple questions) it has an extremely complex answer. The question:

When is it appropriate to ask someone out on a date?

I can't claim any particular competence at dating. If anything, I would claim a particular incompetence at dating, as I have no idea what I'm doing. My dating history totals a single date, probably in late 1988. (And no, it was not with the person who is now my ex-wife.) It was moderately unsuccessful, in that no further dates ever happened.

Comments

[bookly.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting question indeed. I guess, from a female perspective, I want to have had, at the very least, enough interaction with the guy to be able to judge (as well as one can) whether he's a reasonable human being and whether he might be an interesting date. Any time before that is probably not appropriate, in my book, at least for a date-type date (as opposed to, say, getting coffee with someone you've chatted with on the Internet and would like to meet); anytime after that probably is appropriate. I'd say that asking someone on a non-date date (e.g., for the aforementioned coffee) is probably fine at any point. (I reserve the right to amend this answer later. :)

Of course, the above can be bypassed when one's friend vouches for the other person. I guess in these cases the friend is standing as a guarantor of the other person's reasonableness and potential interesting-ness.

[mulderitsme.livejournal.com]

Ditto what she said. Give the other person enough time to figure out you're not a serial killer, and that you just might be interesting enough to spend time with.

Coffee in a public place is a good start, sort of a pre-date to discuss the date-date. But don't call it a pre-date. Just be cool.

my usual technique

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

"Good morning."

"Hi! That was nice."

"Yeah! Wanna go out sometime?"

"Sure!"

...thus, I am REALLY not the person to ask. 8)

Re: my usual technique

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

But even that had a lead-up. How did you get there in the first place?

Re: my usual technique

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Not usually through anything that could be considered "dating."

Re: my usual technique

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

...that wasn't my question.

[bouncingleaf.livejournal.com]

Thoughts:

I'm assuming you mean "when in the relationship" and not "when in the day" or "when in the course of human history" although I'm amused by contemplating those questions also.

I think you and I have different ideas of what a date is.

I think I feel ok (if still nervous!) asking someone out for lunch, coffee, dinner, etc. if we seem to be enjoying each other's company to the point where we sometimes seem to find it hard to stop talking to each other. If we both find each other interesting enough that the conversations seem to go on slightly longer than they should ("I REALLY need to go, but one more thing..."), then I'd express an interest in continuing the conversation in a more relaxed context. Like if I'm talking only online with someone but we keep staying up late to talk, I might ask to get together for coffee sometime. Or if I we get to talking at work I might ask if they want to grab a pizza sometime after work. Basically see if the friendship seems to translate well to a different context.

Is that a "date"? It's ambiguous, and I think that's okay. Both people can kind of sound each other out and determine how they want to proceed. If the lines of communication seem open enough, it can be discussed outright.

[jcgbigler.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't get hung up on whether it's a "date" or something else. To me, a date can be anything from "Hey, wanna go get a cup of coffee?" to "Let's go furniture shopping together."

Obviously, you'll need to have talked enough to decide you find each other interesting. Once you've reached that point, have an informal date, such as a cup of coffee or some other low-cost, low-effort get-together. If that goes well, progress to something equally low-effort, but longer duration.

When Nancy & I were first getting to know each other, the first thing I'd actually call a date was when we went to a coffee shop together and sat and talked for several hours. For our next date, she came over to my house and we watched a rented movie on my tiny 13" TV.

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I can think of a way that I could consider furniture shopping a date.

[dcltdw]

It was moderately unsuccessful, in that no further dates ever happened.

Actually, that makes it rather successful. You want first dates to very clearly end in mutual negative or mutual positive.

Hence what jcb said about a cup of coffee. "I just spent 15 minutes talking with you. That probably wasn't that bad. Would another 15 minutes be a total waste of those precious seconds of my life that I will never get back?"

So yeah. C.f. Say Anything. Is it a date, or a scam, or a... I dunno, what? Whatever.

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

It wasn't mutual. I was interested in continuing; she was not.

And I do not know Say Anything -- is it a movie, a book, or something else entirely?

[lizzielizzie.livejournal.com]

!!

heathen!

Say Anything is a John Cusack movie.

[dcltdw]

...

It's a guy flick. Y'know chick flicks? Yeah. This is a guy flick.

Yeah, the one-up-one-down vote is a bummer. I think I want to amend my original statement to "you want first dates to end in a very clear manner of up-or-down". It's just better if it's mutual, obviously.

Many different answers - all correct, all wrong

[snolan.livejournal.com]

Cowardly answer: never ask a person "out" - always invite the person to do something specific (coffee now, this specific movie, lunch or dinner at that specific restaurant). That way you can hedge your bets, and the invited can also hedge his or her bets and either party can claim it was not really a date, it was just coffee or lunch or common interest in this film or book signing. On the other hand, if things go well - either party can express that they liked lunch/coffee so much they want to do this again or try something else.

Confident answer: ask anytime, the more spontaneously the better, but again be specific. Asking someone "out" is too generic and too open-ended a commitment. You can't ever really get a serious answer to an open-ended question like that (though I've seen people spend their lives trying to suss the answer out, sometimes together for a lifetime).

Simple tip: do the movie/shopping-assist/book signing FIRST, then go for dinner/dessert/coffee AFTER. The reasons are; if the date turns out to be boring, you can at least talk a little bit about the movie/book/furniture over dinner so you are not totally bored and speechless; additionally, it gets you into matinee rates (save a little money).

Good luck!

Re: Many different answers - all correct, all wrong

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

I've been doing the other cowardly thing for far too long, which is to never ask someone out at all.

I do like the tip; that makes sense.

Re: Many different answers - all correct, all wrong

[dcltdw]

Similar to conflict de-escalation, I think you want to give people outs.

Dinner is horrible for a first date. C.f. speed dating: the reason it works is that people really can (and do!) form accurate impressions of people in a few minutes. If this I Thought This Was A Good Idea goes south in a hurry, hey, finish your coffee and you're outta there. Dinner, not so much.

Also, depending on the person (like me), there's a lot of ... I dunno, emotional investment? into Going Out To Dinner With Someone. Cup of coffee, hey, I do that fourteen, fifteen times a day, right? ;) So it's not that big a deal, which makes me more relaxed, which means that I'm not sending off I Am Very Nervous vibes (or I'm less likely to), which means I open up and the other person gets to know me better... all good stuff. The point isn't to win; the point is to not waste time in us getting to know each other.

Wait, let me repeat that. The point isn't to win; the point is to not waste time in us getting to know each other.

I expect to see lj entries about all the coffee shops in your area by the end of next week. ;)

Re: Many different answers - all correct, all wrong

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

I expect to see lj entries about all the coffee shops in your area by the end of next week.

There is one small pesky detail. I do not drink coffee. Well, OK, hardly ever, and even then only for its drug effects. I can usually count the number of times I have coffee in a year on one hand. This year, I'm pretty sure I can count the number of times on no hands.

I do drink beer. I even call myself (I think appropriately) a beer snob. Yet somehow going out to a pub for a beer is considered less appropriate.

Also, depending on the person (like me), there's a lot of ... I dunno, emotional investment? into Going Out To Dinner With Someone.

In my case, the thought of asking someone out for a date is enough to raise the specter of terror. I'm still not 100% sure why, but I think not knowing the answer to my initial question is a big part of it -- I have no idea what I'm doing.

Re: Many different answers - all correct, all wrong

[dcltdw]

Got tea?

Even with a Starbucks or Peet's, there may be other options.

Obviously, do your homework and swing by those places to peruse their menu at you leisure. :)

[lizzielizzie.livejournal.com]

It depends on your definition of a 'date'. A 'date' to me means that the person is attracted to me and wants to get to know me better, and maybe I'll get smooches at the end of the date.

My smart-ass answer is: If you like that person, ask them out on a date.

Truth is, life is more complicated than that. If the person you like is married and monogamous, they would obviously say no (and if they didn't, you should run far away from that situation before you get sucked into a giant pit of DOOM). If the person you like is 12, many people frown upon that (like the law). If the person you like is your boss, you're asking for a world of trouble, IMO. If the person you like is your mother, again with the law thing and the societal frowning.

I don't think people do much real "dating" these days. People hang out, they get coffee, they go to see movies. If the desire to smooch is mutual, it eventually happens. It's all very vague. Annoyingly so, in my opinion.

I'd say: be up front. If you're looking at the date as a friendly interaction, say that. If you're looking at the date as "hey, you're cute, let's get to know each other and see where this goes", say that. If you're up front with folks, they should be Ok with that. If they aren't OK with it, did you want to date them in the first place?

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

I don't think people do much real "dating" these days.

See, I'm not at all certain about that. It may be just that geeks (who have a reputation for being socially inept) do not do much dating, because we don't know how (my case) or for some other reason. Your ISO standard human being may well still do so.

I'd say: be up front.

I'm looking specifically for the when of things. When is it appropriate? When does it come across as creepy/skeevy/weird? When is it likely I'll get not merely a no, but a significantly bad response?

[lizzielizzie.livejournal.com]

I'm looking specifically for the when of things. When is it appropriate? When does it come across as creepy/skeevy/weird? When is it likely I'll get not merely a no, but a significantly bad response?

It all depends on the person you are asking, and the situation y'all are in.

Example: If I were at a bar with some friends, and some guy came over and asked me out, I would say no. Why? I don't consider the bar environment the kind of place to find people I'd want to date. It wouldn't matter what guy came over and asked.

Example 2: These days, any guy that I didn't really know all that well who asked me out on a date would most likely get a no. People who know me better would have a much better chance of getting me to say yes. I know my reasons why, however I don't tend to explain myself to others, which could lead to a world of confusion.

As for creepy/skeevy/weird, in all honesty it depends on the attitude of the asker, and whether or not i find the person even remotely attractive. If someone physically unattractive asked me out, I'd be creeped out. If someone cute and smarmy asked me out, I'd be annoyed. If someone cute and sincere asked me out, I'd be flattered.

As for "significantly bad response", what's the worst that can happen? She posters your neighborhood with signs that say "RAPIST"? She calls the cops on you? She screams bloody murder in your face and everyone around stares at you? Those scenarios are highly unlikely.

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

In the bar situation, I have been remarkably successful in talking with other patrons at the bar -- random strangers -- with me. However, I have no idea how/when to convert that into anything other than talking, should I want to do so.

[dcltdw]

The mental trick that I subscribe to -- which, I should say, falls short of being sufficient to handle tho associated terror -- is to envision the worst thing that could happen if I ask them out for coffee or a phone number or whatnot.

Usually it involves said person
* bursting out laughing
* tugging the sleeve of their friend and saying, "oh my god, look who just asked me if I wanted to get coffee later!"
* immediately pulling out their cellphone and calling their friend to tell them about me -- in front of me, of course, as it would be hard to describe how inappropriately shocking I was if they didn't have me around as reference
* kick me in the nuts, just for good measure.

OK, that's the worst. *deep breath* A'right, here goes...

But no, does it really work? Not really. But it helped. :)

[dcltdw]

Yeah, but being upfront is a lot easier for a woman than a man. Especially in nerd circles. :)

[(Anonymous)]

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